MX-5 Miata Forum - Need help with suspension and wheel overhaul. (2024)

If you don't do spirited driving, why not get one of the OE shock equivalents? The Excel G is popular with the NAs and I'd imagine there is a similar choice for the NBs. Just a thought.

Vmaxxes are good but may put you lower than you'd like to be.

A 15x8 with no fitment issue is the 6UL. For your use, I would go 15x7 and not worry about fitment as much.

The thing is that I am not sure if the springs are shot too. I think the car is literally riding on the bump stops.

I tried the whole push on the car trick to see if I the car would bounce around, but nothing happened.

I really don't know how to check springs separately from shocks, but considering the ride comfort and everything else, I am pretty sure the springs are dead.

I agree with the above about getting new OEM equivalent shocks. If you have doubts about the springs pick up a new set and new rubber mounts and bump stops. Do it right and be happy rather than wonder if you should have done it all.

Then again a new suspension might make you decide you want to be spirited and wish you had gone better! I know not much help.

The point is do it right and be happy. If it were me I'd get the vmax

How many miles? Springs do fail, but generally not all of them in the same mode. You'd have a droopy corner or something I would think. More likely you simply have no damping left in your shocks and you're just bouncing along on barely controlled springs. That, I know, is a very poor experience. I don't know how to tell you to test them but they usually don't just all go slack. They crack, or one collapses, or they rust to extreme.

Somebody out there has heard of worn out springs but not me really. Damaged, yes, but all used up? Not something I've seen or heard of. Still, see my sig. I'm in an NA and make no claim to automotive wisdom.

Good luck!

Your springs are most likely just fine...shocks in need of replacement...FM has some good choices, or just get some KYB Excels with the stock springs...paired with..

The wheels are contributing to your harsh ride...and 15x7 would be more that adequate for your stated purpose...lots of choices out there, including OE 15" wheels that tend to be right in the middle of your 10-15lb range

If you are in the Seattle area, go and post in the regional Pacific Northwest forum and we can get together. You can try my Miata. I'm on the stock springs, Excel G shocks, FCM bumpstops, and FM sway bars. I've got 15x6.5" 12.7 pound rims with 185/55-15 Kumho Ecsta 4XII tires. With a good alignment, it feels very well sorted and perfect for our weather and the roads around, with all of the clearance of a stock vehicle but much better than stock handling.

Only 125K.

The shocks and springs should definitely be worn (especially with the 40 pound wheel weight), but this is just ridiculous.

40lb wheel weight? what wheels do you have? most of the factory wheels a really light..

Some after market wheels that that previous owner put on.

They are ugly as sin and with my tires on they are 38.5 pounds.

Install Sensen or KYB GR2 NB shocks, GC 54mm bump stops, new NB mount rubber bits. That should give a nice supple, plush and soft ride, perfect for daily commuting.

That should leave you plenty of money for new wheels and tyres, which is going to cost you about $1000. You'll probably want the best wet performance tyre made, even if that means going with an AS tyre. Never cheap out on tyres. And if means going with a 15x7.5 or 15x7 tyre because that size has the best wet performance, then so be it.

I usually suggest paying as much for the suspension as you are paying for the wheels and tyres. But, seeing as you're not going for handling as much as looks you don't really need a stiffer suspension, IMO. You would probably be well served installing FM rails as it should give a more rock-solid feel when doing highway and freeway driving.

The Sensen NB and KYB NB shocks will probably last about 40,000 miles, so you will need to replace the shocks and bump stops about every 4 to 7 years, which is average.

I definitely agree with a lot of what you are saying. But I do want to clear up a few things.

I probably do about 3-4K miles a month. If those shocks wear out after 40K, then I definitely need something that will last a bit longer. Just getting the car up in the air to do this job is going to cost me 40 bucks an hour, so I am easily looking at paying 160 just for lift time. If the koni shocks or the vmaxx coilovers will last me for 80K miles, it would probably be worth the extra cash.

As for paying 1000 bucks on wheels and tyres, I completely agree. However I have no idea how I can spend that much. The most expensive wheel and tyre combination I can find is 1200 bucks for racing applications. High quality all season tyres and good quality wheels only seem to run about 700-800 bucks. Soooo IDK what to say really. All I can say is that I intend on paying top dollar for top quality. I want to avoid cheaping out at all costs, but I certainly don't want to pay more for racing parts when the car will never see a track.

Lastly, I am no sure what you mean when you mention FM rails. Do you mean the sway bars or the strut tower?

I had the same thought, but I should be able to throw my weight on the car and have it bob up and down. It just kind of sits there.

Plus the struts have probably never been changed, so it probably needs to be done regardless.

I put on the Excel-G shocks three or so years ago, and they have around 40k miles on them. They feel pretty much like I remember how they felt when they were new. I have no complaints about their functioning and don't see why they won't last quite a while longer.

I lucked out and got my set of wheels for $400, from someone who no longer had their Miata. Brand new CE28n replicas with brand new budget summer tires. They were 31 or 32 pounds, and they're maybe a pound lighter now. I think some deals are still out there, even if you buy brand new.

We can chat more when we get together.

For longer life, Konis or Bilstiens may be better choices.

Something to keep in mind is the bump stops are used a lot and deteriorate faster than one would think they should.

Do you have a garage or a space to work? Shocks can be changed without putting the car in the air.

Even if the shock lasts 100,000 miles you may need to replace the bump stops at half that mileage. idkfs; depends. Besides, chances are you'll be going through two sets of tyres in that time span...

With that many miles you'll probably be best served with AS tyres and probably replace whenever the rear starts to waggle in the rain, which may be 20,000 miles. But I'm sure that you already know that if you drive that many miles a month.

So, you'll be doing your own work, I assume.

You may want to consider Bilstein NB HDs, then. But they may not be the best for hard cornering. Koni NB Sports would probably be a better choice if handling is your prime concern. For a commuter car I would even consider going with extended rear mounts.

Sorry; I usually think in terms of the very best UHP Summer tyres, so you're probably right. I'd buy some pristine, used, stock NB wheels, say from the '99AE, for about $400, then throw on some $300 tyres. What tyre size do you have now? Stock 14", or 15"? If you drive 40KMi a year you'll probably want a 60,000 mile tires, say, with a 600 AA UTQG rating, for example.

FM rails are almost mandatory for NAs, especially the NA6, since they stiffen up the NA noodle chassis, but they have been known to provide a more stable feel on NBs. They should soak up potholes and bumps a lot better than stock (say, when going over RR track crossings (they won't help when going over cow crossing steel grates, though)).

https://www.flyinmiata.com/miata-per...nb-braces.html Don't forget to read the reviews.

As others have said KYB GR-2. See this: http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/m...nt+kit,1001567

However stick with 15X7 wheels. These: http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda.../61-13992.html
or these:
http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda...t/61-1390.html

For all season tires - Kumho Ecsta PA31 are rated very well by Tirerack. See: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=221
and for summer UHP tires: the BFGoodrich g-Force Sport COMP-2 is very good.
see: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=192

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

I currently have 16 inch wheels which are after market. The previous owner was the one that had them installed, and I have no idea who made them and what the specs are.

I don't think that buying stock NB wheels is the right way to go simply because everyone who sells stock NB wheels usually are asking way too much for them. A lot of people want 350-400 for a set of 4 wheels. For 500 bucks, I could get the advantis brand new and have them weigh a few pounds less.

I drove injuredagain's na yesterday, and he had mentioned the extended top hats which I think I will do.

I think my current plan is to get the vmax coilovers, some fat cat bump stops and the extended hats for the rear.

The coilovers will obviously come with the sway bars, which will be a nice upgrade.

If you have bad roads you may want to buy 6 wheels, then, just in case you bend a wheel in the future. Or you can keep a "real" spare in the trunk. Chances are that 5 to 10 years from now you won't be able to get replacements. Ever see 3 wheels being sold on Craigslist???

No matter what you get 'the times are a-changin'' and 15" tyres are getting rarer and rarer, just as the number of great 14" tyres has diminished. For example, the stock 195/50R15 size seems to be dwindling and now we have to go to 205/50R15 to get an acceptable tyre. Or something like 195/55R15. Happens to all cars...

What is your offset? You'll want wheels with as close an offset to stock as possible.

Seems you are quite right. Wow, prices have dropped...

https://tucson.craigslist.org/wto/6015515753.html $200 for stock NB wheels.
https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/wto/5937711880.html $200 for '97 chrome wheels. I paid $400 for my '94 10.5# chrome wheels ~6 years ago.

The ones I have always wanted: https://sierravista.craigslist.org/wto/6015517879.html $200 for the '99AE or 2K chromed wheels. Too bad they're 190 miles away. :cry:

https://www.miata.net/faq/wheel_weights.html

I'd go with the FM package buy to kick illuminate over the koni. I just installed their 2.5 package and love the street ride.

I have 15x8 and run the Yokohama s drives and find them great for the street and they are cheap.

What do you mean?

To me, IME, I find that wet grip diminishes at 1/2 tyre rating, or after about 3 years service because the rubber hardens. The way I know is that if my rear wiggles in the wet then it's time for new tyres.

Or do you mean that no tyre is good in the wet beyond 15,000 miles?

I prefer stiff sidewalls for cornering. Me, personally, I hate soft side walled tyres. ymmv. I know, my likes have no bearing whatsoever on Tjj226_Angel's question since what he wants to use the car for is as a commuter car. All I can say is that when I had Bridgestone RE750 tyres and I got caught in a mid summer downpour rainstorm in Flagstaff the car car was rock solid at 80 mph. The tyres were over 2 years old. I still miss those tyres... They had great water channeling grooves.

http://tires.tirerack.com/thumb.php?...i2_l.jpg&s=190
http://tires.tirerack.com/tires/Asym...%20Directional

NEVER buy cheap tyres for a Miata. I bought some $50 apiece tyres once and after 3 months I had to get rid of them. I could make them screech when cornering. Heck, I could fold over the stiff sidewalled Azeni 195/60R14s. I know that cornering really isn't a major concern to you, that what you want is just a commuter tyre. I just say that it might as well then be one that has great wet performance.

Walli,

Not to shatter your dreams or anything, I had 12-13 year old polished 2000SE wheels on my SE, the clear coat starts to lift and corrosion works its way under and looks horrible. Paid big buck to have them re polished and cleared. Will be sticking with silver painted wheels from now on.

Ymmv

Yeah, the same has happened to my '94ME wheels. They don't look good.

Byrdman, I believe I have finally experienced what you and Jeff were talking about: where the stiffer spring rates over powers the tyre. There would seem to be two solutions: much better tyres, or at least two sizes over, that can handle the stiffer springs, or go back to the MSM springs.

At the present moment I am exploring the possibility of re-enforcing the Koni perch ring by welding pieces of steel onto the Koni shock body, so that it better supports the perch plate, but still leaving some room to be able to replace the ring in the future. That is definitely where Bilstein has the better design.

I could just pull the digital calipers and measure the coil thickness, multiply by the number of coils, then compare to the length between the perch plate and where the bump stop washer goes, but how do I know where the FM NB springs dead coils start and stop?

I found a really nice YouTube video that explained it all and am having problems re-finding it.

Getting back on topic, I may be able to get another year out of my tyres, but if I go with the FM NB springs, GW extended tops and Koni NB shocks, I'm worried that the FM springs will over power the BFG Comp2 tyres. My problem? The same as what others have experienced: the dimished number of good tyres in 195/50R15, so one may need to go to 205/50R15 - which may mean the need to change to a different wheel. Luckily I don't have that problem since my Konig Featherweights are 7" wide.

I'd hate to buy a car just because it has '99-2002 Sport 5-spoke alloy wheels instead of the polished wheels. :D Chances are that if it came with the polished wheels it probably only comes on the better car (lsd, bigger brakes, etc.)

Yep. You're right - it should never be attempted. So I'll probably be going back to the MSM springs on the Koni shocks if my measurement shows that I'll likely get coil binding with the FM NB springs if I keep the GW rear mounts. I'll measure the MSM spring as soon as I dig out my digital calipers and a new battery...

Keith had stated that he needed to do his own measurements and I provided the numbers in another thread (basically 23mm of added available length). [To tell the truth, adding the NB upper recoil spring rubber seat adds about another 6mm, so about 29mm total - which is also the actual amount of available travel since the 54mm bump stop always makes contact, with either MSM or FM springs.] So it's either take the chance or not. I think I do not want to take the chance. I think I would rather have the 1" of travel before the 60mm bump stop makes contact. Even now the rear feel over bumps is much better than with the Koni Shocks set to 1 turn from full soft, where the rear end gets flung up in the air, which also happens with a stock NB.

As far as the Bilstein NB HD project has gone - cutting the front bump stops to 46mm helped, adding the GW mounts helped, going to the stiffer, inner hole, on the front sway helped, disconnecting the rear bar didn't help all that much, which now leaves lowering the front air pressure by about 2, 2.5, or 3 psi. http://users.telenet.be/miata/englis...suspension.htm As I said, when driven as a commuter car the Bilstein NB HDs, FM NB springs, a larger front bar, isn't too bad. In my case I have to moderate the accelerator judiciously. What I am used to is pedal-to-the-metal, WFO, take-a-90-degree-turn handling. Driven sanely the NB HD/FM spring combo is okay; driven insanely I find it lacking; ymmv. I'll keep tweaking, hoping that I can make it work.

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_shocks

Sliding and spinning is exactly what I'm experiencing on corner entry when accelerating. Being careful with the accelerator helps but it also cuts down on cornering speed when braking, decelerating and then sharply turning. The soft walled BFG Comp 2 tyres don't help me since it delays the taking of a set, when I get back on the accelerator exiting the corner. With my Bridgestone RE11s I could take a faster set when cornering, whereas with the BFG Comp 2 I have to take a slower set.

http://users.telenet.be/miata/englis...suspension.htm

Like I said before, my last alignment gave me toe-out in the front, which doesn't help. My next alignment is due in April since I get two free alignments per year.

Seems to be a lack of understanding of the quoted material on shocks. Driver preference for stiffer shocks 'to lean on' entering corners is precisely why team managers use lap times, shock histograms on the track, shock dynos and 4 post shaker rigs, and Not driver feedback for shock valving decisions. Lap times go down, drivers still want stiffer shocks.

For the same info in a little clearer exposition, the articles in optimumg.com describe how there is an optimum damping for any given spring rate and unsprung weight. Less than fully educated 'tuners' will almost always set up dampers stiffer than this. Grip suffers, drivers FEEL faster. Steering response on corner entry is NOT the same thing as optimum grip. Nor should driver limitations, particularly some idea that fast inputs make a car faster, define a good setup. Emilio's continual emphasis on testing and data recording is how less than magnificently funded cars get well set up.
Suspension load on a tire is only part of how ultimate or steady state tread slip angle is determined. The tread and tire carcass each has it's own hysteresis (lag), same as the suspension, which is where talent behind the wheel soon becomes apparent in balancing these and other interacting dynamics.

All fine and good if you're a racer, who is part of a team, one funded by sponsors. I'm a streeter. My butt is my dyno. The old adage applies: "When the map and the terrain disagree, trust the terrain."

From reading some posts above, the issues seem far more driver technique, or lack of, than hardware. I suggest reading Andy's Top Ten Autocross Tips.
Mistaking suspension motion dampers for chassis roll control hardware doesn't help any. Which seems the belief which misinterpreting the race team reference evidenced.

I'd choose the tires first and then pick wheels that work with the tires.

Might be worthwhile to check with Flyin' Miata before ordering tires and/or wheels.

Goodwin was cheaper on the RPF1 wheels but then I would have had to pay for mounting and balancing locally. Costco down here didn't have any 195/50R15 tires available and won't mount any size not listed on the door sticker. Could have tossed the wheels and tires in the back of the pickup and told them it was for a '96M and then Costco would mount and balance them. A couple Costcos a bit further away from me will sell/mount 15" tires on older Miatas. Discount is out of stock of 195/50R15 Comp2 tires, Les Schwab, even if they can get them always has been high priced IMO.

IIRC Tire Rack has increased the price of the 195/50R15 Comp2s since I bought.

At the beginning of the month I ended up ordering 4 Enkei RPF1 15x7 and 4 195/50R15 g-Force Sport COMP-2 from Flyin' Miata for a total of $1184.00 including shipping. Drop shipped from Tire Rack, mounted, Road Force balanced with lug nuts and hubcentric rings.

Price from tirerack.com would have been $1,304.80

Tires: (4 @ $76.25) $305.00
Wheels: (4 @ $193.00) $772.00
Sub-Total: $1,077.00
Shipping: (985xx): $128.56
WA State Sales Tax: $95.24
WA State Waste Tire Fund Fee: $4.00
Total: $1,304.80

Most of the price difference consisted of the sales tax, the rest most appears to be from the lack of the 2 year Tire Rack "free" Road Hazard warranty. The "free" warranty wasn't worth $120 to me, YMMV.

Tires/wheel selection isn't limited to what's on FM's website. FM said they can sell anything from Tire Rack but rebates won't work.

BTW the lug nuts Tire Rack included weren't suitable for RPF1 wheels. I didn't care for the Tire Rack included plastic hubcentric rings. I had bought McGard spline drive lug nuts and aluminum hubcentric rings from Amazon before ordering the tire/wheel package so I was good to go.